Academy Award-winning filmmakerEdward Berger(All Quiet on the Western Front) may have landed himself back in the running for awards season following the world premiere of his religious dramaConclaveat theToronto International Film Festival. The tense thriller drips with Oscar potential, bolstered by an ensemble featuringRalph Fiennes,Stanley Tucci,John Lithgow, andIsabella Rossellini, who joined Berger at the festival.
Following the unexpected death of the Pope,Conclavetakes audiences inside the clandestine election within the walls of the Sistine Chapel. Guided by Cardinal Lawrence (Fiennes), cardinals from across the world (played by Lithgow, Tucci,Lucian Msamati, and more) convene at the Vatican to take part in the ancient tradition of vying for the responsibility of becoming Pope. Throughout the proceedings, however, Lawrence is met with conspiracy and doubt that shake his foundation to its core.
While at TIFF, Berger and Rossellini stopped by Collider’s studio at the Cinema Center at MARBL to talk withSteve Weintraubabout the filmmaking process. Rossellini shares insight into her character, Sister Agnes, a woman surrounded by “120 men that have the total authority of the Vatican,” while Award-winning Berger admits that if he isn’t prepared to a T, he’s “too scared to come to set.” Watch the full conversation in the video above or read the transcript below for even more onConclaveand what is (and isn’t) coming up next for the director.
Where to Begin With Ingrid Bergman
COLLIDER: I like throwing a curveball right at the beginning. Your mom was such a talented actor and has done so many amazing roles. If someone’s actually never seen anything of your mom’s work, what are the one or two things you think they should start with?
ISABELLA ROSSELLINI: My mom was Ingrid Bergman, a great actress who died, unfortunately, many years ago. She had 10 fantastic years in Hollywood making films with [Alfred] Hitchcock, [George] Cukor. The most famous film is probablyCasablancain America. I loveNotoriousby Hitchcock. I love the film she made with my dad, Roberto Rossellini, who was a filmmaker. They did five films together. Maybe the two that I like the most areStromboliandA Trip to Italy. And then the last film she made was with Ingmar Bergman,Autumn Sonata. So see, I cannot choose. I cannot say one. I have to give people at least five titles.
EDWARD BERGER:Trip to Italyis a wonderful film. She’s great. She also played a nun inThe Bells of St. Mary. There’s one shot inConclavewhere I’m looking at Isabella, and I’m like, “It’s Ingrid Bergman.” And then I wake up, and I realize, happily, that it’s Isabella.
Speaking ofConclave, there are so many people who will not have seen it yet, so how have you been describing the film to people?
BERGER:Conclaveis about the election of a pope. The pope has just passed away, and now, behind closed doors, all the cardinals from all over the world come together to elect a new pope in a secretive, very clandestine, very closed-away [meeting]. It’s not open to the public. No one can share a secret. We follow all the cardinals and their machinations to become the next pope.
Isabella Rossellini Says ‘Conclave’ Moved Her Profoundly
“The lines were like bullets.”
You’ve read so many scripts in your career. What was it like reading the script for this one for the first time, and what was it about the material that said, “I want to be a part of this?”
ROSSELLINI: The script was fantastic. It was written by one of the most wonderful scriptwriters.The lines were like bullets.They were so easy to say because when something is written well, it’s really easy for an actor to say those words. The film moved me. The story moved me profoundly. Something that generally people say is, “Well, make up your mind. Is it this, or is it that?” But this is about mystery and doubt and how we all have it, and we have to bow to it. I thought that was very touching.
You had huge success withAll Quiet on the Western Front. How much did you debate what you wanted to do after that film, and what was it aboutConclavethat made it the one?
BERGER: The good thing is that I decided to doConclavelong beforeQuiet. I’ve developed this film with Tessa Ross, the producer, and Peter Straughan, the writer, for about five to six years.I thinkConclavecame just beforeQuiet, and it just took a little bit longer to come together. Then during the campaigning forAll Quietfor the Oscar, we shot it. So, actually, when I went to the Oscars, I’d just wrapped the movie and I was kind of happy that I already made up my mind what the next movie is.I didn’t feel so much weight about it because I knew I was in love with it. I knew I wanted to do it, and it wasn’t laden, it wasn’t muddied by all the noise aroundAll Quiet.
Edward Berger “Is Like a Painter” With Cinematography
Working with cinematographer Stéphane Fontaine was on Berger’s bucket list.
One of the things that I commend you on withConclaveis just how cinematic it is. There are so many great shots in it, like the umbrella shot. Talk a little bit about how you collaborated with your cinematographer to make sure that this was something you wanted to see in a movie theater.
BERGER: I had seen Stéphane Fontaine’s work in Jacques Audiard’s movies. He made movies likeA ProphetorRust and Bone, so I’d been a great admirer of his work. He was nominated for an Oscar forJackie, which was a great film with Natalie Portman, and so I always thought, “One day, if my cinematographer doesn’t have time, the guy I usually collaborate with, I’ll only ask Stéphane.” Luckily, he enjoyed the script, and we just very much spoke about how the film can’t be just a chamber piece or that we need to put the camera in a position that basically mirrors what the actors feel inside.
We shot-listed everything and storyboarded the whole electoral process in the Sistine Chapel in order because there were about five elections. We didn’t want to repeat ourselves, so we just made sure to make them all visually different. We’d always said, “Let’s watch the performance, though, first. Let’s see what Isabella does, and then look at our shot list, look at our storyboard, and then decide, does that still make sense or has she played it differently? If she’s played it differently, where do we put the camera to make the audience feel what she feels at this moment?”
ROSSELLINI: But I have to add that Edward is like a painter. Film is about visual power, and he can tell the story just by photographing. The first day I was working, we worked on a scene where the cardinal arrives and they are all dressed in red, and they are powerful, and they had decided they are going to elect the pope. And there were the nuns, who are the servants of the cardinals. They are dressed in a dark blue, and they walk looking down. The shot was from above, and just a body language of our movement with the cardinals, walking disorderly, and us always avoiding to bother, told the story of the hierarchy of the church and the separation of the role of male and female. That was done not with my acting, it was done photographically and by choreographing the crowds.
That’s the other thing is that there are many scenes with so many actors in it. Talk a little bit about the blocking because people don’t realize all of that has to be figured out. It’s not like they’re walking randomly in a movie. Was that all figured out in advance in terms of the storyboards? What is it like to try to choreograph on set?
BERGER: I like to plan everything in advance because otherwise, I’m too scared to come to set, and then everybody looks at me and says, “So what are we gonna do?” And I say, “Well, I don’t know.” Then I was worried about panicking. So, I need to think about it ahead of time with Stéphane, with my production designer, with my costume designer, AD, and with the whole crew. I start to plan, “How am I gonna do this scene?” And then I kind of throw it out, though. It’s mainly for my own confidence, to get rid of the doubt that we all have, and just to put it aside. Then Ralph [Fiennes] comes on set, Isabella comes on set, and did I ever say, like, “You sit here? You stand there?” Usually, I go, “Alright, let’s see. How do we do this? Maybe you sit here, but also, what do you feel?”
It’s kind of a collaboration of trying to find it out. Then, we slowly get to the point where it’s best. Sometimes it’s different to the storyboards or to the shot list, and then we can adapt with the camera. It just gives me a framework. It gives me a sense of security, the planning, to be able to say, “You know what? Get rid of it. Let’s do it differently.”
Completely. I love talking about the editing process because it’s where it all comes together. You finish the movie, you have a cut — what happens after the first friends and family screening?
BERGER: Those screenings are immensely important because I usually show the film when I think, “Well, now I’m out of ideas. I’m kind of done.” I’m thinking, “Well, the movie works.” I never think it’s great, but I think it just works. So, “Let’s see what other people think.” And then I realize it doesn’t work yet because they tell me. I get honest people to come and watch the movie, and they say, “I got bored in minute 20,” and, “This character I didn’t understand. This scene was superfluous.” Whatever. It’s a discussion. Then I go, “Oh my god, how am I gonna fix that? The movie is terrible.” You go back, and the doubts come back. “I should have done it differently.”
Bit by bit, you craft away at it until, ideally,every shot that is in the film tells a new story, advances the movie, and every shot has a purpose. Especially with a movie likeConclave, it is a chess game. It’s that the characters play, and the movie was written like that. So, it feels like a precisely-architected script and movie. That was important to me that it becomes not repetitive, every shot is there for a reason, it tells a story, it tells how the character feels, and it makes the audience feel something. And so you chop away. It’s like a sculpture, bit by bit. Eventually, you say, “I don’t know, is it gonna get better? Let’s just finish it up.”
The other thing about the film though is you have to figure out precisely where and when to reveal information, and if you reveal too much too soon, the audience is ahead of the characters. That’s one of the reasons why they edit on something like this. Did it change a lot in the editing room in ways you didn’t expect?
BERGER: We cut things out. I don’t think we moved things around too much, butwe left information away that was possibly in the scriptthat we thought, “It’s better, actually, if we keep this a mystery a bit longer.”
Isabella Rossellini Could Relate to Sister Agnes on Set
“I have to speak in front of all these superstars.”
For both of you, you see the shooting schedule in front of you — what day is circled in terms of, “I cannot wait to film this,” and what day is circled in terms of, “How the F are we gonna film this?”
ROSSELLINI: [Laughs] You prepare, you memorize the lines, you run them with friends. You’re always intimidated when you go to the set. There are many people, and in this film, there are so many fantastic stars. I read everybody’s lines but mine so that I hear — not just read — I hear the line, and then I will hearthemsaying it. But I trained myself to hear, to be present in that moment, and then say my line. That’s how I generally prepare. Sometimes I do it with another actor, and sometimes I don’t have any anybody who works with me, so I do it with a tape recorder.
Was there a day on this shoot that you were incredibly excited to film something?
ROSSELLINI: There is a very important scene for this nun to play that has been really silent. She has a presence in the film, but she follows the vow of modesty and “being invisible,” as she said. Then, one day, I say, “I know my role is to be invisible; nevertheless, God has given me eyes and ears, and I make a denouncement.” SoI have to speak in front of all these superstars, and probably Sister Agnes must have felt the same. There she was talking to 120 men that have the total authority of the Vatican, and she had the authority of the honesty.
It’s a big scene, and an important moment.
BERGER: By the way, on my schedule, all days are circled with, “How on Earth are we going to shoot this?” I have sheer panic awaiting me every day. Really, always, there’s a sense of urgency and need and desperation in my stomach every time I come to set. Actually, before everyshot, I think, “Oh my god, we’re not gonna get this. We’re not gonna get this.” I’m hiding this from Isabella, by the way. I’m not telling her, I’m not panicking. I’m really calm, but inside, it’s like, “We’re not gonna get this.”
ROSSELLINI: I know. I’m the daughter of a director. [Laughs]
BERGER: She saw through me. And then she gets it, and I go, “Oh, wow, we’ve got this one.” And then it starts again with the next shot. So, it’s reallyfrom shot to shot you’re driven by sheer panic to fail.
‘All Quiet on the Western Front’s Director Edward Berger on Historical Research and His Next Film ‘Conclave’
He also spoke about how they used the harmonium to symbolize the war machine.
Sure, but by the way, it’s that kind of nervousness that’s why you’re good at your job because you give a shit. You’re not phoning it in. That’s why this movie is so good.
BERGER: Thank you very much. If that comes through, then it’s okay.
No, Edward Berger Isn’t Doing a Bond Film
Nor is he doing the next ‘Ocean’s 11.’
If you don’t mind, I have to ask you, what is it like when people start saying you might be someone who’s helming a Bond movie? Do you know about this?
BERGER: I’m very ignorant to rumor, or I’ve tried to push it aside. I don’t listen to it,especiallywhen it’s not true.
So, officially you’re not doing one?
BERGER: It’s not even a conversation in my mind, or I’m sure not in Barbara Broccoli’s mind.
ROSSELLINI: She’s an adorable person, Barbara Broccoli. A major woman producer, an adorable daughter of.
BERGER: These are rumors that are just not true, so just put a bucket on it. Let’s make film by film. I don’t know what will be next. I’ll just decide.
There was a rumor that just came out, and it was reported on a major trade, that you could be doing anOcean’s 14movie.
BERGER: [Laughs] Well, I feel very honored that people think of me to be able to do something like that, and of course, I would love the challenge to do either, but again, it’s rumors that are just people wanting to print some news that just have no basis in fact.
Edward Berger’s Next Film “Is In Search of Liberation”
Then I’m gonna ask you a real thing,The Ballad of a Small Player, which I believe you just shot.
BERGER: I can talk about that because I actually did it, and I wanted to do it.
What’s interesting is I remember talking to Colin [Farrell], and he was in Macau, and I’m like, “What are you doing over there?” I forget what he said, but then I found out he’s making a movie with you. What can you tell people about this film? And is it done shooting?
BERGER: I just wrapped two weeks ago just before I came to this festival. I’m really happy that I have another movie. Basically, I developed several movies parallel because you always think none of them are gonna get made, and I was lucky enough that all three of them got made. So, I needed to shoot them, and this was the third one. It’s about a gambling addict going to Macau and basically going off the rails.This is, again, in search of some kind of liberation, not unlikeConclave, even though it’s a very different genre. Iit’s Colin in the main role with Tilda Swinton and Fala Chen.
Is it radically different than your other work or is there a style or throughline that goes through all these three recent films?
BERGER: I would love to change with every film because you develop, you become a different person, you wanna try different things. You’ve explored that side of your personality, so you wanna explore something new. You’re always drawn to material by some mysterious essence. In this case, just like Isabella, I was drawn to the question of doubt withConclave. That was the main theme of the movie, how doubt can be hindering you but can also be an incredible source of strength if you embrace it. In essence, when I think about the different movies —All Quiet,Conclave,The Ballad of a Small Player— I would think of a theme of liberation, to liberate yourself from your past, to try to find a place where you feel safe and at home. That’s kind of maybe of an element that ties all movies together.
Cardinal Lawrence is tasked with leading one of the world’s most secretive and ancient events, selecting a new Pope, where he finds himself at the center of a conspiracy that could shake the very foundation of The Church.
