The latest season ofDoctor Who, serving as a second soft reboot of the long-running sci-fi franchise, has been filled with top tier episodes, wonderful performances, and a lot of emotion. As the series' first openly queer actor playing the Doctor,Ncuti Gatwa, along with his fellow cast and crew, have brought the series into the future. In the latest episode, titled “Rogue,” the Doctor gets his first love interest of the new era, played byJonathan Groff. With showrunnerRussell T. Daviestaking a week off from writing, multihyphenatesKate HerronandBriony Redmanstepped in to pen the script for “Rogue,” and knocked it out of the park. The episode is a wonderful mix ofDoctor WhomeetsBridgertonwith a sprinkling ofGalaxy Quest, a sweeping romance, and a welcome shot of humor before the two-part season finale.
Ahead of this episode, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Herron, who is rapidly becoming one of the hottest names in television having worked on smash hits likeLokiandThe Last of Us, to chat about all things “Rogue.” During our expansive conversation we spoke about taking this important on-screen step in the Doctor’s queer journey, creatingnew characters like Rogueand the Chuldurs, and thatKylie Minogueneedle drop. Herron also spoke about reuniting with Gatwa for this episode after directing him inSex Educationand howMiliie Gibson’s performanceduring the initial table read reshaped some of her dialogue. We also discussed getting to keep all of theBridgertonreferences in the episode, which 2005 episode inspired her the most, and what she hopes audiances take away from “Rogue.” you may read the full transcript of our conversation below.
Doctor Who
The show follows the adventures of a Time Lord, “The Doctor,” who is able to regenerate, and the Doctor’s human friends. The Doctor and his companions journey through time and space in the TARDIS – a time-traveling ship shaped like a police box – saving the universe with a combination of wit, bravery, and kindness.
Writing ‘Doctor Who’ Was a Massive Honor, Says Kate Herron
COLLIDER: I loved this episode. I know that Russell has said that he was a huge fan of your work onLoki,so he reached out to you and, by extension, Briony [Redman] to collaborate on this episode. What was your relationship withDoctor Wholike before you took on writing an episode, and how has it changed since?
KATE HERRON: I’m a massive Douglas Adams fan, and I know he has written on the show, andit’s just a massive honor to be asked to work on it. Initially, honestly, I was nervous because I do love the show, and I’ve seen quite a bit of it, but I don’t know it extensively, whereas Briony is a very big fan of the show. So when we were asked, I was like, “Look, I wouldn’t normally leap into something,” because I’m a nerd and I have to know something completely inside out, but I said, “I know you love this, so if we can approach it, just let me know if I’m saying anything that isn’t correct or whatever.” It ended up being such an amazing experience. Obviously, I love Russell, and I’d worked with Ncuti [Gatwa] onSex Education, and to be asked to write for his Doctor, I couldn’t really say no to that because I think he’s incredible. So I was very, very excited and flattered for the challenge. As soon as I got the job, I was researching and deep-diving into everything and falling in love with the show again.
I love that. As you mentioned, this isn’t your first time working with Ncuti since you’ve directed him onSex Education. How did having directed him before affect, if at all, how you wrote for him as the Doctor?
HERRON: It was interesting because obviously Ncuti’s doing a very different performance to playing Eric onSex Education, butthere’s a warmth to Ncuti and a joy and a love, and that was so fun. Also, Russell was very generous in letting us see stuff when we were getting a sense of, “Okay, this is how…” I don’t think they had started filming, but we were seeing in Russell’s scripts how he was writing Ncuti, and I was like, “Okay, that’s the voice of this Doctor.” Then we would do rewriting on an adaptation as we got to see the dailies that they were doing with him, like for the Christmas special, and being like, “Okay, this is the vibe.” But definitely, there are certain ways Ncuti would say something where I’d be like, “Oh, that would be really fun to put in there,” but obviously, he completely made it his own.
This episode is a very fun little love letter toBridgerton, and I like theGalaxy QuestmeetsBridgertonvibe. What made you useBridgertonfor this concept?
HERRON: Honestly, I love that show, and I love costume drama and romance. We pitched Russell so many different ideas for it, andhow me and Russell became friends was talking about queer representation and love stories. I just really enjoy writing love stories. Generally, I find it quite fun. So I remember I said to him, “Oh, could we try a love story?” Obviously, the bar is high, right? You have episodes like “The Girl in the Fireplace,” and I was nervous to take on something like this, but also it’s a fun challenge to do this. And I think for me, like as a joke, because I used to write fan fiction, I remember I said to Briony,“We are basically just writing fan fiction.”As a joke, me and Briony would put in stuff likeBridgerton, and we were expecting them to be like, “Okay, you now have to remove these references,” but then we just never had to! [Laughs] So we were like, “Okay, great. I’ll just leave them!”
Kate Herron Wanted to Bring Authenticity to The Doctor’s Queer Enemies-to-Lovers Story in “Rogue”
As a huge nerd and fan fiction enjoyer myself, I loved this episode. Also, as a queer person myself who is equally obsessed withDoctor WhoandBridgerton, I really appreciated how big of a step this is in the Doctor’s journey as a queer figure. Queerness has always been an element ofDoctor Who, but this is probably the biggest step forward, especially for the Doctor. How did you feel writing such an impactful part of his journey?
HERRON: It was an honor, to be honest, and something that me, Briony, and Russell were all very passionate about. So when you have a story like that, it’s just aboutgiving it as much authenticity as you canwithin a sci-fi space. But I would say that the key thing with that is just making sure the emotions were earned and true. It was very exciting to us and something we’re all very passionate about.
I love that. I love the scene where the Doctor and Rogue are figuring each other out, and the Doctor is just in full-on flirt mode. Can you talk about that little build-up until they have to do that big reveal of their other faces?
HERRON: For us, it was just such a fun build-up. I suppose it’s that enemies-to-lovers storyline, the classic. [Laughs] It was so important to us that Rogue was an equal to the Doctor, and the Doctor is one of the smartest beings ever to exist, right? So it’s like,“How do you find an equal for them?”And I think that was so key, honestly, in trying to work out, “What does Rogue bring?” There were interesting things where we were like, “Okay, well, Ncuti’s Doctor is very charismatic, very confident, so what if Rogue is more shy, or a bit more withdrawn in a way,” which was quite fun. But in terms of the chess game they play, we were very careful in plotting that up to the moment where Rogue sees the Doctor in all their representation, andall the different genders the Doctor is and has been, and is just like, “You’re beautiful.”That was very important to acknowledge.
I love that so much. I also really enjoyed the little D&D reference with his name.
HERRON: Briony plays D&D online and is obsessed with it. I do love D&D. They’ve got me to play quite a few times. Again, because we were trying to come up with a character name, and we were like, “Well, Rogue is a rogue, so let’s just call Rogue Rogue, and we’ll come up with a name later.” And then we never did. [Laughs]
I think that that’s perfect. It leaves so much more room to explore in the future.
When they’re on the ship, and they have that fun back-and-forth flirtation, did you have the Kylie song picked out when you wrote it, or did you leave that up to whoever decided later?
HERRON: We went through a few different songs, but I think we did have the Kylie song in the script. For us, it was honestly just speaking with Russell and the music department. We were pitching loads of different things to them, and all of us love Kylie, so we were like, “Will she give us the song?” And she did! So, no, that was already in the script, but definitely, we had a few different things just because we weren’t sure if we could get that song or what would be available. And again, it was just a fun subversion for Rogue’s character. We were like, “Okay, what’s a song you wouldn’t expect them to be playing?”
Exactly! It felt like a classic, early Russell-era moment, too, like when they used “Toxic” as an old Earth Ballad.
This 2005-Era ‘Doctor Who’ Episode Helped Kate Herron Set the Emotional Tone for “Rogue”
I also love Ruby’s side plot of being a revolutionary. Millie [Gibson] has so much fun with it and it’s such a good companion side quest. Can you speak a bit about writing Ruby’s storyline for this episode?
HERRON: Me and Briony had so much fun writing this and just the idea of subverting who was the wallflower and how they often play into these stories. Millieisfantastic. It was actually really fun writing for Millie because when we started initially writing for Ruby, Millie wasn’t cast. So,her voice really changed as we were writing the episodebecause, obviously, you’ve seen Millie come in, and we were like, “Wow, that’s so cool!” We got to do a read with her and Ncuti, and just hearing them read the script out loud,you automatically start making changes to the dialogue and turns of phrasesthat they use.
But no, I think it was really important and exciting for us to be like, “Okay, well, Ruby is this very modern character who lovesBridgerton, so how would they interact with this world?” Also, it isn’tBridgertonthat they’re visiting, it’s reality, so what is the reality they’re faced with? The idea of these two women meeting each other from completely different times was really fun to us, and just how would their friendship blossom? How would they help each other and enjoy the night together?
It was so lovely. I’m also obsessed with her psychic earrings — I need a pair! How did you come up with that handy little tool for her?
HERRON: So, I can’t take credit for the psychic earrings. Russell suggested that to us. We were doing a few different script notes, and Russell was like, “Oh, I’ve had this idea.” He’s very gracious, he was like, “I think it’d be really cool.” We were like, “Yeah, yeah, what is it?” And then he told us that, and we were like, “That is genius. We’re definitely putting that in there.” So,that’s a Russell creation, absolutely.
They’re so fun. Most of this episode is really fun and campy and silly, but then towards the climax, you have these really deep emotional beats with the Doctor thinking that Ruby is dead, and then Rogue’s big hero moment. How did you approach playing with that range of emotions and tones, and then pulling the rug out from under the audience at the end?
HERRON: I’ve always been drawn to very emotional stories within sci-fi.One of the episodes that made me fall in love withDoctor Whowas “Father’s Day” by Paul Cornell. I remember for me that was such an exciting act because it showed me the range of emotion you can have within the show within a very clever sci-fi story. Obviously, the episode is very funny and camp, and I think our main note from Russell was, “I want this to be a very fun episode, butit’s also a love story, and there’s great sacrificeand feeling in it, and stakes, obviously.” As a writer, I’ve always been really interested in that, to be honest, like how to balance the comedy and the drama together so that the comedy is always adding and not taking away from any of the things that hurt, basically.
I love that earlier in the episode, Ruby has that moment where she gasps as she’s watching the other two characters, and then watching the Doctor and Rogue later in the episodeI’mfeeling like Ruby now, gasping at the characters. I love that development there.
Speaking of the climax, I absolutely love the scene where Rogue kisses the Doctor and then sacrifices himself to save Ruby. I think that’s such a big, telling moment for his character. Then, when he says, “Find me,” before he goes, it’s very River Song of him. Is there any chance we’ll see him again in the future?
HERRON: I cannot confirm anything. For that, you have to ask Russell. But I should say it was very important for us that, you know,I never wanted Rogue to die at the endbecause I know if I was watching at home, I would be furious. But I think for us, it would be exciting, this sense that Rogue is a true hero, so it made sense that he would make a decision like that. But I don’t know. I always like to leave stuff open-ended. [Laughs] Who knows? We’ll see.
Speaking of leaving things open-ended, between that moment and you mentioned there’s a moment that I noticed where Rogue talks about his new boss or something, you leave a lot of forward potential for either yourself or future writers. Would you come back and write more episodes ofDoctor Who?
HERRON: Oh, I would be flattered to return. Me and Briony had such a good time, and we have a very good relationship with Russell, so, yeah,we would be honored to return.
Here’s What Kate Herron Would Do With a ‘Doctor Who’ Musical Episode
Excellent. How did you decide on which Easter eggs fromBridgertonyou would include in the script? Did youhave any say in the instrumental needle drops, like “Poker Face” and the other one?
HERRON: I would say in the script, you try to give the best story you’re able to to the team, and we had a very good director called Ben Chessell. I cannot take credit for those needle drops. That is him. We put in the script ideas in there just because it’s soBridgertonthat there will bean orchestral cover of a pop song. But truthfully, we wrote the script so long ago I can’t remember what we put in there, which is so bad. [Laughs] But, yeah, we gave that as a tonal guide. I think the only thing I’d say that sustained — and obviously, this was a conversation between me, Ben, Russell and Briony — was the Kylie track because that is so key to the character. But for the orchestral needle drops, no. We put, “Think this,” and kind of covered the song just so they understood, “Oh, they’re doing thatBridgertonthing.” But no, we put it completely in our brilliant showrunner and director’s hands in regards to that.
I don’t know if this is something that would have been in the script or if it’s something that happens later with the prop department, but the symbol that’s on the ring that Rogue proposes with, is that something that was included in the script? I couldn’t quite make out what it was.
HERRON: So that is, I would say, an adaptation from later on with our costume and props department. We definitely said that he had a ring, basically, that was his, but in terms of the design of it and everything, that’s something that the brilliant design team took on.
I know one of your earliest projects was a short calledKill List: The Musical. If you were going to do a musical episode ofDoctor Who, how would you approach that?
HERRON: Oh my gosh, I’ve never even thought about that. I love musicals, as well. Like, Ilovethem. I like the idea ofdoing a musical where it’s a monster. The idea that you go off with the monster for the whole episode, it’s a musical, and it’s almost like you’re like, “Is this an episode ofDoctor Who?” And then you bring in the characters at the end. That would be really interesting to me to do that in a way that would still be entertaining to people. Maybe we could do a Chuldur musical! Maybe that’s the way to do it. They’re very theatrical. They probably would love music. I mean, it wouldn’t surprise me that they also would enjoy watching musicals because they love their pop culture.
Absolutely! I loved theGalaxy Questsort of vibe of the Chuldurs having seenBridgerton. How did you go about creating a new alien species for this episode?
HERRON: We were talking to Russell about it. He loved the idea of bird monsters. We always had shape-shifting aliens in our script, and I think they looked slightly. They did look different in our first draft, but Russell was like, “Oh, you know what? I really wanted to do something with birds. Could you make them birds?” And we were like, “Sure.” Sowe made these shape-shifting bird monsters. In terms of the name, I think me and Briony were just sitting in my office and just saying nonsense words, and then I remember I said “Chuldur,” and we were like, “That sounds like something that exists.” [Laughs] But in terms of how they exist, we grew up lovingBuffy the Vampire Slayer, and for us,villains with a sense of humor are always really interesting to usand quite fun, and also quite scary. You know that they have a sense of fun in what they’re doing because it’s awful what they’re doing. The key thing for us in creating them was trying to make them all feel quite distinct and different. Obviously, because we’ve written them, we have all these backstories for them and everything else. We just had a lot of fun writing them, to be honest. They’re meant to be the worst of the worst, so you just kind of revel in that a bit.
This is such a fun, lovely episode. What are you hoping that audiences take away from it?
HERRON: Oh, honestly, I hope people just havea sense of joy and a sense of fun.Russell told us, “I want this to be a fun, exciting episode,” and so I hope that that’s what people get from it. I hope they have fun watching it, I hope they swoon, and I hope that people laugh at some of the jokes.It was a dream come true to work on it,and I feel very flattered to have got to make this contribution with my writing partner, Briony, to what is, for me, one of the greatest British shows. It was just a massive honor.
Stay tuned at Collider for moreDoctor Whocoverage ahead of the two-part finale. New episodes are available to stream on Disney+ on Fridays at 7 PM ET.
